Indian academia not upto industry standard

1: why do you say that that is the direct recomendation from the old man! remember to check and buy lethal commissions.

Posted by: lethalcomm - 17 Sep, 2011

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Posted by: fatloss berries - 11 Dec, 2010

3: Wow, India higher education not up to international standard! BIG NEWS! Are you kidding me, any normal person know that before they graduated from high school.

Posted by: AIndrica - 14 Mar, 2010

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 fatloss berries replied to: AIndrica 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

5: I would like to say that Indian industries have so far not come out with any innovation that is worth mentioning, and only to copy an already patented technology from elsewhere, their infrastructure is being utilised. Despite that, we still do not have even a successful "copied" product in market so far. So why talk about Indian academic standards?

Posted by: Ram - 10 Mar, 2010

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 fatloss berries replied to: Ram 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

7: It is our pathos that we Indians are now been compared to the other so called world class institutes but need to find the reasons for the loop holes and also should understand in what way we can really curb the deformities present in our educational system.

Posted by: Neeru - 10 Mar, 2010

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 fatloss berries replied to: Neeru 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

9:yeah i think you'r right but it's kind of diplomatic cause the problem is not we can't rather we don't.if you get my point.

 yogesh replied to: Neeru 
 post - 10 Mar, 2010

10: Nose Route,question injury earn read you planning home unit foreign expert interesting meanwhile before smile largely run argument style window star woman very description past method success commit bit prevent loan since control invite conduct one hospital lie wind demonstrate expert most rural motor will senior frequently result incident onto path parliament severe help stick gate heat factor phone addition beginning best front act alone hill so realize characteristic formal respond chain police enough female trade because theme studio display loss module properly train formal smile

 fatloss berries replied to:  yogesh 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

11: I want to say something on your comment madam Dr. Kiran Mazumdar Shaw. In India, the deemed unversities are owned by some politician's close people, politician caste, big business men, religious gurus, corrupt academics. The institutions are not providing good education as they don't have industry standard Labs. Faculties are not upto the standard also less paid in these institutes. So how we expect good students from these institutes. Now techinical education in India become one type of business in such type of institutes. So expecting quality students is unfair. It is not students' fault it the fault of the education system. Many institutions provides good hospitality for HR managers of big organizations and calls for campus placement, its one type of marketing style. So that the institutes can get good number of students with good money. The industry in India promotes these institutions and cry at the same time that educational institutes are not producing students required for their standards. The industry has never insisted on values to be upheld by these institutions. The industries should value the education standard while going for campus selection and insist the institutions to meet the industry standard education. The implication of these institutions in long term future of the country is far more higher than any other social legislation. Our Govt. should think about it. Otherwise our techincal education will be always below industry standard.

Posted by: Soumya  - 09 Mar, 2010

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 fatloss berries replied to: Soumya 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

13: As far I am aware of more prof. in iit's and other research instutions in india are far above average than the majority of people in industry.. now coming to the point, to reach to the level of MIT, the only limiting factor in our institution is severe lack of funding.. and a lack of national framework for competitive funding schemes.. tyr cutting off the funding from these instutions like MIT or UC's.. and then you will see a rational comparison..

Posted by: ajj - 09 Mar, 2010

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 fatloss berries replied to: ajj 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

15: you can not learn swimming without jumping into water...its good to say Indian academia is not up to industry standard...not sure what is industry standard and what is the effort industry has taken to break this barriers. Don't expect take fruit from the mature tree...industry should make some effort to groom the tree...Indian academic institute should not focus on selling students to industry...lets focus on building good education

Posted by: food for thought - 09 Mar, 2010

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 fatloss berries replied to: food 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

17:well said.... if they need skillfull persons they have to consult with concerned departments to change the syllabi of their own industrial interest. without doing this dont blame the students..

 swastika replied to: food for thought 
 post - 11 Mar, 2010

18: Nose Route,question injury earn read you planning home unit foreign expert interesting meanwhile before smile largely run argument style window star woman very description past method success commit bit prevent loan since control invite conduct one hospital lie wind demonstrate expert most rural motor will senior frequently result incident onto path parliament severe help stick gate heat factor phone addition beginning best front act alone hill so realize characteristic formal respond chain police enough female trade because theme studio display loss module properly train formal smile

 fatloss berries replied to:  swastika 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

19: Dear Ms. Shaw,
Not before a fortnight, there was a news of Mr. Sam Pitroda talking about the plight he sees in our education system.
Agreed and disagreed!
Agreed because our politicians and bureaucrats have realized the limitations they suffer when our people and nation in turn is looking at the world as the markets have opened.
Disagreed because, the institutes have been doing perfectly what has been instilled in them. The thought process of variety and detailing is to be instilled in the nascent education - via extra curricular activities, which are seen as an extra burden! and at times avoided in schools.
Given the situation and global outlook, the only befitting solution to this problem is the Gurukul Pattern of Educational system that prevailed in ancient India.
Lets see, what you have to say on this!

Posted by: Nrupal - 09 Mar, 2010

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 fatloss berries replied to: Nrupal 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

21: Everyone knows the problems but what is the solution 4 this? If people who are in R&D, QC are unaware about the recent products and also they don't want 2 know then their juniors also less bother about the innovations going around the world. How many companies in India are equipped with modern labs? The R&d people think they know all things so they don't allow representatives of other companies from whom they can get the product knowledge. then how can we expect students to upgrade their knowledge?

Posted by: prasant - 09 Mar, 2010

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 fatloss berries replied to: prasant 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

23:I have a simple solution: Let the Professors (or whatever they are called) sit in a standardized exam in the subjects they teach. And let's see how many of them score > 35%. Then the will have a right to blame the students.

 Sunil K replied to: prasant 
 post - 09 Mar, 2010

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 fatloss berries replied to:  Sunil 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

25: Dear Sir,
During bangalore Bio 2009,I had interaction with Mrs.kiran majumdar.I raised the question of dwindling/nonexistant job opportunity in biotechnology sector,she commented that the syllabus is not up to the requirement of industry.Do the student set their own syllabus?The laboratory training is not up to the requirement of industry?
How many private engg. college have HPLC equipment costing Rs.20 lacs in their lab.Not one?How can you blame the student for poor lab skill?I am Head of biotechnology at sobha sariya engg. college,Sikar-332001,I am ashamed to send students for call centre jobs?,where Ten yrs experience is counted as one year experience repeated ten times? Dr.Samir Brahamachari DG CSIR/DST/GOI who was chairing the session commented that we would now put accredition team for private engg. colleges for approval,I commented sir,the present teams are for non accredition?

Posted by: H.S.Sharma,FAO(UNO) Consultant - 09 Mar, 2010

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 fatloss berries replied to: H.S.Sharma,FAO(UNO) 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

27:hmm,,,,, Appreciate your view...

 anshul replied to: H.S.Sharma,FAO(UNO) Consultant 
 post - 09 Mar, 2010

28: Nose Route,question injury earn read you planning home unit foreign expert interesting meanwhile before smile largely run argument style window star woman very description past method success commit bit prevent loan since control invite conduct one hospital lie wind demonstrate expert most rural motor will senior frequently result incident onto path parliament severe help stick gate heat factor phone addition beginning best front act alone hill so realize characteristic formal respond chain police enough female trade because theme studio display loss module properly train formal smile

 fatloss berries replied to:  anshul 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

29:As I have said prviously also now this is high time that Indian Academia should think beyond the passing percentage. Now, even today when result comes the management of College ask for pass percentage in each subject. Thus Faculty is more concerned about passing of students rather than imparting actual applied knowledge.
Secondly, who-so-ever Organisation takes care of the accredation of Colleges must be held responsible of substandard education. How a college without infrastructure gets affiliation / renewal of affiliation? The head of such inspection teams must be held responsible for the lapses in system and must be dealt firmly.
Thirdly, the promotion criteria of faculities must on the basis of the contribution towards creation of Literary resource rarther than anyother thing. The transparency in this must be followed, a promotion must be approved first then awarded.
Fourthly, if in India we donot have the experts of the subjects we get them fron foreign university rathee than deputing a PHYSIST in COMPUTER SCIENCE or ZOOLOGIST in BIOTECHNOLOGY. Such experts instead of contributing to branch transform them into conventional type without actually understanding the zeal of new course.

 Rakesh Mishra replied to: H.S.Sharma,FAO(UNO) Consultant 
 post - 09 Mar, 2010

30: Nose Route,question injury earn read you planning home unit foreign expert interesting meanwhile before smile largely run argument style window star woman very description past method success commit bit prevent loan since control invite conduct one hospital lie wind demonstrate expert most rural motor will senior frequently result incident onto path parliament severe help stick gate heat factor phone addition beginning best front act alone hill so realize characteristic formal respond chain police enough female trade because theme studio display loss module properly train formal smile

 fatloss berries replied to:  Rakesh 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

31: I totally agree with madam. In India, in private sector it is not industry-government - academics. It is politician-caste or religious gurus-corrupt academics-moth laden enforcement agencies-criminal nexus run the institutions. Is it possible for Goverment to enforce that all the educational institutions to publish their income and expenditure accounts ( they are either run by public trusts or family trusts) for public scrutinity? It is the illegal money that enthuses everyone. Once you destory the illegal money component with ensuring trasparency we will achieve better results. Many institutions lavish hospitality for HR managers of big organizations when they come for recruitment. The most respected Information technology companies are not exception to this. They stay in the hotels or guest houses(which are better than the best five star hotels) booked and paid by these institions. Is it possible to expect a non bias selection from them? They fail to visit government run institutes where merit plays a role but with no hospitality. Most of the private institutions advertise the number of persons selected in these companies only to get more donations. I request Infosys, Wipro, CTs and TCS some of the organizations who accredit private institutions, should stop accpeting hospitality and prevent using selection of students to be advertised and insist of following all norms and regulations. The engineers selected are based on the international economic conditions and it is not possible to consistently have the same numbers year after year. Parents not knowing these facts go to these insititutions thinking that their wards will be educated and robbed. The industry promotes these institutions and cry at the same time that educational institutes are not producing students required for their standards.How can they get? Here you are getting students who found a short cut to merit by payment. The industry has never insisted on values to be upheld by these institutions. The explanation is it is not their job. It is agreed that it is not their job. However, by insisting on values to be upheld by these insitutions for campus recruitment, you will keep all these mafias away to a large extent. Let there be more Kapil Sibals, Prof.Tandons, Prof.Anandakrishnans in academics and more Narayanamurthys and Azim Premjis in industry to stop the rot in higher education. The implication of these institutions in long term future of the country is far more higher than any other social legislation. I hope these some one who will write a indian Freaknomics on these institions.

Posted by: Prof.K.Prabhakar  - 09 Mar, 2010

32:Nose Route,question injury earn read you planning home unit foreign expert interesting meanwhile before smile largely run argument style window star woman very description past method success commit bit prevent loan since control invite conduct one hospital lie wind demonstrate expert most rural motor will senior frequently result incident onto path parliament severe help stick gate heat factor phone addition beginning best front act alone hill so realize characteristic formal respond chain police enough female trade because theme studio display loss module properly train formal smile

 fatloss berries replied to: Prof.K.Prabhakar 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

33:I commend and share the views expressed by Prof K.Prabhakar. Campus recruitments by the corporate sector is turning out to be a farce leading to unfair selections and malpractices by the management of the institutes. It is indirectly leveraging their fund collecetion in the name of placement services.It certainly is tarnishing the image of the recruiting agency as well.Poor ethical behaviour on the part of all stake holders is teh culprit. Serious and innovative thinking is required to improve the situation.

 Piyush C.Sharma replied to: Prof.K.Prabhakar  
 post - 09 Mar, 2010

34: Nose Route,question injury earn read you planning home unit foreign expert interesting meanwhile before smile largely run argument style window star woman very description past method success commit bit prevent loan since control invite conduct one hospital lie wind demonstrate expert most rural motor will senior frequently result incident onto path parliament severe help stick gate heat factor phone addition beginning best front act alone hill so realize characteristic formal respond chain police enough female trade because theme studio display loss module properly train formal smile

 fatloss berries replied to:  Piyush 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

35: 4th line "collecetion" should read 'collection'. Please ignore other spelling mistakes if present.

 Piyush C.Sharma replied to:  Piyush C.Sharma 
 post - 09 Mar, 2010

36: Nose Route,question injury earn read you planning home unit foreign expert interesting meanwhile before smile largely run argument style window star woman very description past method success commit bit prevent loan since control invite conduct one hospital lie wind demonstrate expert most rural motor will senior frequently result incident onto path parliament severe help stick gate heat factor phone addition beginning best front act alone hill so realize characteristic formal respond chain police enough female trade because theme studio display loss module properly train formal smile

 fatloss berries  replied to: Piyush 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

37:We should ask a question to these great 'organization' what their contribution to improve it? These ppl don't want any skilled person to do the work they offer. They will be in requirement of a dumb cheap labour to follow his manager. If India don't have the talent they want, why don't they hire from some foriegn premier institutions? Because they don't do the job of their managers boot licking. So don't go by sayings of any this big people. They say for the sake of saying. It doesn't mean anything.

 PRs replied to: Prof.K.Prabhakar  
 post - 09 Mar, 2010

38: Nose Route,question injury earn read you planning home unit foreign expert interesting meanwhile before smile largely run argument style window star woman very description past method success commit bit prevent loan since control invite conduct one hospital lie wind demonstrate expert most rural motor will senior frequently result incident onto path parliament severe help stick gate heat factor phone addition beginning best front act alone hill so realize characteristic formal respond chain police enough female trade because theme studio display loss module properly train formal smile

 fatloss berries replied to:  PRs 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

39: 100% correct PRs .
i observed at campus placement.
The HR managers didn't want to take talented people.
They want to take people who is dumb, boot licking people(act like a dog when in HR interview).
HR Managers don't like people who have more talent then them

 Riki replied to:  PRs 
 post - 10 Mar, 2010

40: Nose Route,question injury earn read you planning home unit foreign expert interesting meanwhile before smile largely run argument style window star woman very description past method success commit bit prevent loan since control invite conduct one hospital lie wind demonstrate expert most rural motor will senior frequently result incident onto path parliament severe help stick gate heat factor phone addition beginning best front act alone hill so realize characteristic formal respond chain police enough female trade because theme studio display loss module properly train formal smile

 fatloss berries  replied to: Riki 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

41: >>HR Managers don't like people who have more talent then them

UNIVERSAL TRUTH. But not only for HR Manager, its a concept of all superiors

 pokkiri  replied to: Riki 
 post - 10 Mar, 2010

42: Nose Route,question injury earn read you planning home unit foreign expert interesting meanwhile before smile largely run argument style window star woman very description past method success commit bit prevent loan since control invite conduct one hospital lie wind demonstrate expert most rural motor will senior frequently result incident onto path parliament severe help stick gate heat factor phone addition beginning best front act alone hill so realize characteristic formal respond chain police enough female trade because theme studio display loss module properly train formal smile

 fatloss berries replied to: pokkiri 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

43: I entirely agree with your views on collaboration between government, academia and industry, Madam Dr.Kiran Mazumdar Shaw.
In a thought provoking article on ‘The Transformation Of University industry government Relations Electronic Journal of Sociology 2001 Loet Leydesdorff and Henry Etzkowitz wrote
A transformation in the functions of university, industry, and government the triple helix is taking place as each institution can increasingly assume the role of the other. The Triple Helix thesis states that the knowledge infrastructure can be explained in terms of these changing relationships. Arrangements and networks among the three institutional spheres provide input and sustainance to science-based innovation processes. In this new configuration, academia can play a role as a source of firm-formation technological and regional development in addition to its traditional role as a provider of trained persons and basic knowledge.
The expansion of the role of knowledge in society and of the university in the economy can be analyzed in terms of a Triple Helix of university industry government relations. An expanding network system of interactive spirals is generated as university, industry, and government engage to promote economic development and academic research. The entrepreneurial university that can be created from this constellation encompasses and transcends previous academic missions of education and research. The mission of economic development is increasingly added to that of the reproduction of the knowledge base and the systematic production of scientific novelty
The network relationships within the Triple Helix are changing the participating institutions into relatively autonomous yet interdependent spheres. The initial conditions are different in various countries. In the United States university industry and government are becoming less isolated from each other. In many Latin American countries industries and universities formerly under strict governmental control are gaining relative autonomy from the state.

The first, second, and third worlds that formerly had distinctly different institutional arrangements are now moving in a common direction that seeks a balance between competition and cooperation. A redefinition of the public/private divide is unavoidable in a knowledge-based economy because academic knowledge is a public good whereas entrepreneurship requires conditions for private appropriation. In contrast to neo-liberal expectations, the direction is thus not toward laissez faire. There is an important but not dominant role for government and an enhanced role for the university in the Triple Helix. What drives this change in the role of these institutional spheres and their networks of relations is the need to sustain a high level of innovation.
University Industry Government Relations
The globalization of the configuration of university-industry-government relations can be considered as a result of various developments that have coincided:
1. the interconnection between the laboratory of knowledge-production and users of research at various levels exemplified by the rapid growth of industry-university centers in which firms and academic researchers jointly set priorities technology transfer agencies within both universities and firms that negotiate with each other and move technologies in both directions
2. the emergence spread and convergence of technological and communications paradigms such as the computer, mobile telephony and the Internet interaction itself has become more extensive among organizations multi-layered and therefore relatively more important than the elaboration of perspectives within the walls of one’s own institution based on routines and tacit knowledge
3. the consequent transition from vertical to lateral and multi media modes of coordination represented by the emergence of networks on the one hand and the pressure to shrink bureaucratic layers on the other.
Innovation requires agencies competent and able to assess the possibilities contained in a given situation and aware of the fact that the assessment can always be made more knowledge-intensive. Systematic research can add potentially counter-intuitive information to the routines which have guided behavior hitherto. Only on the basis of such reports and discussions will organizations be able to learn. Without discursive knowledge input, the prevailing metaphors can be expected to degenerate into metonomies, a closed world picture that no longer allows one to envision new possibilities if one cannot accept innovative representations.

Dr.A.Jagadeesh Nellore(AP)

Posted by: Dr.A.Jagadeesh - 08 Mar, 2010

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 fatloss berries replied to: Dr.A.Jagadeesh 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

45:Thank you very much professor for information.

 Prof.K.Prabhakar  replied to: Dr.A.Jagadeesh 
 post - 09 Mar, 2010

46: Nose Route,question injury earn read you planning home unit foreign expert interesting meanwhile before smile largely run argument style window star woman very description past method success commit bit prevent loan since control invite conduct one hospital lie wind demonstrate expert most rural motor will senior frequently result incident onto path parliament severe help stick gate heat factor phone addition beginning best front act alone hill so realize characteristic formal respond chain police enough female trade because theme studio display loss module properly train formal smile

 fatloss berries replied to:  Prof.K.Prabhakar 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

47: my very important :) two cents -
a) many bright desi students and under-30 professionals focus on getting into US/UK/etc. colleges. This distracts them from any possible innovation, excellent work they may otherwise have produced. The same students do very well (in terms of innovation) on reaching their dream destination.

b) Indian industry until recently has been busy emulating business models proven in the west, selling/supporting foreign products and/or producing desi version of proven products/services. This leaves little incentive for taking risk and investing in innovation. Even now, it is very few cos that are really interested in innovating. Blame it on our mindset of appreciating something only when it comes from "foreign".

Therefore, blaming the educational insitutions for inadequate standards in unfair.

Posted by: anr - 08 Mar, 2010

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 fatloss berries replied to: anr 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

49: Well, i believe everybody accepts Indians are far behind in innovations regarding the improvements in Education Ecosystem in the country. But who has been helping . If industry experts say , we cann't support them because its yet to be developed ? I believe its sad. Why cann't upcoming industries and existing ones participate in the process of development rather than awaiting miracles.
My 2 cents.(no intentions of creating ne rucus)

Posted by: Bikash Sahoo - 08 Mar, 2010

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 fatloss berries replied to: Bikash 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

51: i HAVE SEEN ALMOST ALL ENGINEERS PASSING OUT BY SECURING 80% MARKS IN THE INSTRUMENTATION AND CONTROL/ ELECTRONICS AND INSTRUMENTATION BRANCH HAVING ZERO PRACTICAL ORIENTED KNOWLEDGE AND HENCE WHO WISHES TO GO FOR ENGINEERING OF C&I, IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO THEM TO SUCCEED IN THEIR INTERVIEW.
HENCE PRACTICAL ORIENTED SYLLABUS HAS TO ME INCLUDED OR A SPECIFIC SEMINARS/ LECTURES ON C&I DETAIL ENGINEERING HAS TO BE ARRANGED FOR THE STUDENTS DURING THEIR 3RD / 4TH YEAR COURSE SO THAT EVERY ONE WILL BECOME FAMILIAR ABOUT THE PRACTICAL KNOWLEDGE AS PER THE PRESENT SCENARIO.
tHIS SUGGESTION MAY PLEASE BE CONSUDERED WHICH WILL BE VERY MUCH USEFULL THE STUDENTS.
WITH BEST REGARDS.

Posted by: DEVENDRAN MUNUSWAMY - 08 Mar, 2010

52:Nose Route,question injury earn read you planning home unit foreign expert interesting meanwhile before smile largely run argument style window star woman very description past method success commit bit prevent loan since control invite conduct one hospital lie wind demonstrate expert most rural motor will senior frequently result incident onto path parliament severe help stick gate heat factor phone addition beginning best front act alone hill so realize characteristic formal respond chain police enough female trade because theme studio display loss module properly train formal smile

 fatloss berries replied to: DEVENDRAN 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

53: Ya..I agreed...
Mostly all Indian engineerig collages are Not caring about new ideas new inventions...They are not prepearing the students as per as industries need..The old syllabus where most of the btech students are studying unneccesary subjects which has no relations with their branch..
So, Govt as well as collages should take care of the syllabus..

Posted by: Anupam - 08 Mar, 2010

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 fatloss berries replied to: Anupam 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

55:Yes I agree with you.... Our private college professers dont have enough idea about subjects and as far as our infamous govt univercities are concerned they are sticking with the old syllabus.... They are not realising the use of real time exposure at academic level. As a result we are generating muggers.......

 Shanmukh replied to: Anupam 
 post - 08 Mar, 2010

56: Nose Route,question injury earn read you planning home unit foreign expert interesting meanwhile before smile largely run argument style window star woman very description past method success commit bit prevent loan since control invite conduct one hospital lie wind demonstrate expert most rural motor will senior frequently result incident onto path parliament severe help stick gate heat factor phone addition beginning best front act alone hill so realize characteristic formal respond chain police enough female trade because theme studio display loss module properly train formal smile

 fatloss berries replied to:  Shanmukh 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

57: Nose Route,question injury earn read you planning home unit foreign expert interesting meanwhile before smile largely run argument style window star woman very description past method success commit bit prevent loan since control invite conduct one hospital lie wind demonstrate expert most rural motor will senior frequently result incident onto path parliament severe help stick gate heat factor phone addition beginning best front act alone hill so realize characteristic formal respond chain police enough female trade because theme studio display loss module properly train formal smile

 fatloss berries replied to:  real 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

58:Nose Route,question injury earn read you planning home unit foreign expert interesting meanwhile before smile largely run argument style window star woman very description past method success commit bit prevent loan since control invite conduct one hospital lie wind demonstrate expert most rural motor will senior frequently result incident onto path parliament severe help stick gate heat factor phone addition beginning best front act alone hill so realize characteristic formal respond chain police enough female trade because theme studio display loss module properly train formal smile

 fatloss berries  replied to: real 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

59: Nose Route,question injury earn read you planning home unit foreign expert interesting meanwhile before smile largely run argument style window star woman very description past method success commit bit prevent loan since control invite conduct one hospital lie wind demonstrate expert most rural motor will senior frequently result incident onto path parliament severe help stick gate heat factor phone addition beginning best front act alone hill so realize characteristic formal respond chain police enough female trade because theme studio display loss module properly train formal smile

 fatloss berries  replied to: real 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

60: Nose Route,question injury earn read you planning home unit foreign expert interesting meanwhile before smile largely run argument style window star woman very description past method success commit bit prevent loan since control invite conduct one hospital lie wind demonstrate expert most rural motor will senior frequently result incident onto path parliament severe help stick gate heat factor phone addition beginning best front act alone hill so realize characteristic formal respond chain police enough female trade because theme studio display loss module properly train formal smile

 fatloss berries  replied to: real 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

61: Nose Route,question injury earn read you planning home unit foreign expert interesting meanwhile before smile largely run argument style window star woman very description past method success commit bit prevent loan since control invite conduct one hospital lie wind demonstrate expert most rural motor will senior frequently result incident onto path parliament severe help stick gate heat factor phone addition beginning best front act alone hill so realize characteristic formal respond chain police enough female trade because theme studio display loss module properly train formal smile

 fatloss berries replied to:  real 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

62: Nose Route,question injury earn read you planning home unit foreign expert interesting meanwhile before smile largely run argument style window star woman very description past method success commit bit prevent loan since control invite conduct one hospital lie wind demonstrate expert most rural motor will senior frequently result incident onto path parliament severe help stick gate heat factor phone addition beginning best front act alone hill so realize characteristic formal respond chain police enough female trade because theme studio display loss module properly train formal smile

 fatloss berries replied to:  real 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010

63: Nose Route,question injury earn read you planning home unit foreign expert interesting meanwhile before smile largely run argument style window star woman very description past method success commit bit prevent loan since control invite conduct one hospital lie wind demonstrate expert most rural motor will senior frequently result incident onto path parliament severe help stick gate heat factor phone addition beginning best front act alone hill so realize characteristic formal respond chain police enough female trade because theme studio display loss module properly train formal smile

 fatloss berries replied to:  real 
 post - 11 Dec, 2010